this thread is devoted to Q and A on Lutheranism
Anyone can feel free to ask away!
posted by Thuyen Tran at 9:13 PM
Lutheran Lite
Theology of the cross
Friday, October 20, 2006
Previous Posts
- The gospel
- Virgin Mary = mother of God
- Lutheran Epitome of Formula of Concord on conversion
- My denom statement on fellowship
About Me
- Name: Thuyen Tran
- Location: Orlando, Florida, United States
Diehard Lutheran... College football and basketball fan... Civil War buff... Slogans: Scriptures alone, grace alone, faith alone, Christ alone, to the glory of God alone, constantly reforming
9 Comments:
What does this mean?
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. (John 10:27-28)
The Lutheran view is basically that of the Augustinian view of perseverance of the elect, as opposed to the Calvinistic view of perseverance of the saints.
Calvinists hold to all who God elected are all who ever truly believe and in the end, by the power and grace of God, will be kept in the faith to the end.
Lutherans, as did Luther and Augustine, held to those God elected indeed will be kept to the end. On the other hand, they also hold to God's desire is indeed to save all and His universal grace can be resisted. Resistance comes from our fallen nature, to where the flesh counts for nothing. Conversion has nothing to do with our "freewill" which is futile and contributes nothing to our salvation.
Likewise, we also speak of God's "universal grace" when it comes to those God did indeed truly converted to faith. If one is converted and by God's grace persevered to the end, it is because of God's election ultimately. On the other hand, not every single true believer will persevere in the end, and that will because they walk away from salvation.
Luther as well as Lutherans do note how paradoxical and even contradictory that can be to the finite human mind. But we assert that we go by Scriptures even when it does not appeal to our human reason. Luther himself made that distinction between the hidden will of God (which causes the salvation of the elect) and the revealed will of God (which declares God's desire to save all, His gracious activity on all, and His atonement for all).
The warning passages about falling away reminds us the possibility of not being saved in the end for those who were saved at conversion are real. It reminds us that our security is in Christ and Christ alone. We have security as long as we are in Christ.
And that is how we can be assured that we are elect. That is we remain in Christ. Abide in Him. Then we will know it is God who works in us to keep us and that none can snatch us out of God's hand. That is our assurance there. That passage you asked about- Lutherans see as referring to perseverance of the elect.
I refer to these links:
http://www.wels.net/sab/qa/rel-calvinism-01.html
We would emphasize the following points. The Bible teaches very clearly that it is possible to fall from faith (1 Corinthians 10:12). It also assures us that God will protect us from falling (1 Corinthians 10:13). The first passage warns us when we are complacent. The second comforts us when we are troubled. Among the other passages that deal with this are Matthew 13:18-23, Hebrews 10:26, and John 10:27-29.
We would, therefore, agree with the basic points which Dr. Dobson makes about the possibility of falling from faith but not with some of the other aspects of his answer. The Armenian view held by Dobson affirms that our free will cooperates in our conversion to Christ. We believe that our natural will resists God, and our will only cooperates with the Holy Spirit after conversion. We do not by nature have a free will to make a decision for Christ. We do not by nature have the freedom to choose for Christ. We do have the freedom to chose against him. From our perspective then, Dobson's answer is half right.
http://www.wels.net/sab/qa/doc-05.html
While we do not use the phrase all that regularly, perhaps to avoid confusion with the "perseverance of the saints" dogma among Calvinists, we rightly hold to the teaching on the perseverance of the elect. You are correct and have stated the concept quite well. Passages like Matthew 24: 22, 24 serve as the basis of this teaching, as does the very definition of the term elect or chosen, as used in Ephesians 1 and elsewhere.
I have a question regarding Matthew 22:2-14:
2"The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son.
3He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come.
4"Then he sent some more servants and said, 'Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.'
5"But they paid no attention and went off—one to his field, another to his business.
6The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them.
7The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city.
8"Then he said to his servants, 'The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited did not deserve to come.
9Go to the street corners and invite to the banquet anyone you find.'
10So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, both good and bad, and the wedding hall was filled with guests.
11"But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes.
12'Friend,' he asked, 'how did you get in here without wedding clothes?' The man was speechless.
13"Then the king told the attendants, 'Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
14"For many are invited, but few are chosen."
My question is:
Had the original "invitees" accepted the invitation and gone to the wedding, would God have still sent his servants out to the street corners to invite "other guests?"
Perhaps that is a mystery.
I would be inclined to believe that if the original invitees have accepted, God would still have send the gospel out to others, too.
I do believe God wants all to be saved and to come to the knowledge of Jesus Christ. On the other hand, God does from before creation chose who His elect will be, not on the basis of anything He foresees in them.
How do I reconcile these two truths? I don't. I can only state both views are what the Bible says so.
I like what Luther said here in his notable work, Bondage of the Will (famous for fact Luther proclaimed strongly his rejection of freewill and affirmation of unconditional election):
As to why some are touched by the law and others not, so that some receive and others scorn the offer of grace, that is another question, which Ezekiel does not here discuss. [b]He speaks of the published offer of God's mercy, not of the dreadful hidden will of God, Who, according to His own counsel, ordains such persons as He wills to receive and partake of the mercy preached and offered. This will is not to be inquired into, but to be reverently adored, as by far the most awesome secret of the Divine Majesty. He has kept it to Himself and forbidden us to know it; and it is much more worthy of reverence than an infinite number of Corycian caverns![/b] Now, God in His own nature and majesty is to be justify alone; in this regard, we have nothing to do with Him, nor does He wish us to deal with Him. We have to do with Him as clothed and displayed in His Word, by which He presents Himself to us. That is His glory and beauty, in which the Psalmist proclaims Him to be clothed [Ps. 21:5]. I say that the righteous God does not deplore the death of His people which He Himself works in them, but He deplores the death which He finds in His people and desires to remove from them. God preached works to the end that sin and death may be taken away, and we may be saved. "He sent His word and healed them" [Ps. 107:20] . But God hidden in Majesty neither deplores nor takes away death, but works life, and death, and all in all; nor has He set bounds to Himself by His Word, but has kept Himself free over all things. [b]The Diatribe is deceived by its own ignorance in that it makes no distinction between God preached and God hidden, that is, between the Word of God and God Himself. God does many things which He does not show in His word, and He wills many things which he does not in His Word show us that He wills. Thus, He does not will the death of a sinner - that is, in His Word; but He wills it by His inscrutable will. At present, however, we must keep in view His Word and leave alone His inscrutable will; for it is by His Word, and not by His inscrutable will, that we must be guided. In any case, who can direct himself according to a will that is inscrutable and incomprehensible? It is enough simply to know that there is in God an inscrutable will; what, why, and within what limits It wills, it is wholly unlawful to inquire, or wish to know, or be concerned about, or touch upon; we may only fear and adore! So it is right to say: "If God does not desire our death, it must be laid to the charge of our own will if we perish"; this, I repeat, is right if you spoke of God preached. For He desires that all men should be saved, in that He comes to all by the word of salvation, and the fault is in the will which does not receive Him[/b]; as He says in Matt. 23:37 "How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldst not!" [b]But why the Majesty does not remove or change this fault of will in every man (for it is not in the power of man to do it), or why He lays this fault to the charge of the will, when man cannot avoid it, it is not lawful to ask; and though you should ask much, you would never find out[/b]; as Paul says in Romans 11: "Who art thou that repliest against God?" [Romans 9:20]
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